Comments on: THE SHACK Controversy Continues http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/ Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:13:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Randy http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-32721 Randy Thu, 12 Aug 2010 13:40:30 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-32721 Henry, I will comment on your post. I too just like you have the same hell fire and brimstone background. And even though I was taught it for 40 or so years, It never did sit right with me. Something always felt wrong about it. I could remember asking my parents stuff like, "If God is love and he knew ahead of time that a vast majority of his creation would reject him and burn, then how could he do it ? Would you have done it to even one of your kids?", The answer was sometimes churchy, like "well God is sovereign or God is holy" ,neither answered the question or reconciled a loving God with those actions. Sometimes I got an honest answer, of "I dont know the answer to that and no I could not do it to my kids". It forced me into my own study and I am concluding the same things as you. I have read those same verses and come away with the same thing. To add a verse to your post, Romans 11:32 says "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Just think of the imagery in that verse, being bound over , like tied up, and it was his doing and plan. Notice it does NOT follow that by saying, "so he could torture us all" I continue to search... Henry,

I will comment on your post. I too just like you have the same hell fire and brimstone background. And even though I was taught it for 40 or so years, It never did sit right with me. Something always felt wrong about it. I could remember asking my parents stuff like, “If God is love and he knew ahead of time that a vast majority of his creation would reject him and burn, then how could he do it ? Would you have done it to even one of your kids?”, The answer was sometimes churchy, like “well God is sovereign or God is holy” ,neither answered the question or reconciled a loving God with those actions. Sometimes I got an honest answer, of “I dont know the answer to that and no I could not do it to my kids”. It forced me into my own study and I am concluding the same things as you. I have read those same verses and come away with the same thing.

To add a verse to your post, Romans 11:32 says “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”

Just think of the imagery in that verse, being bound over , like tied up, and it was his doing and plan. Notice it does NOT follow that by saying, “so he could torture us all”

I continue to search…

]]> By: Henry http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-29819 Henry Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:29:17 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-29819 I'd like to wade into this whole universal salvation business just for a moment. I come from an eternal hell for all the lost background myself but have only recently begun to question this theology because I can't reconcile who I've come to know God to be. When Jesus says in John 12:32,"And I , if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." And what about 1 Cor.15:22 where Paul says,"As in Adam All died, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." How many is all? Do you really think that the God that's depicted in the Bible and demonstrated 21st century style in "THe Shack" would do such a thing as predestine 99% of lost humanity to endless torment, especially when Jesus says in John 6:44 that NO ONE can even come to Him except the Father draw him? Since I began to question this theological construct, I've done a lot of research on the subject and I've found that the main verse that this whole thing seems to be based on is Matt.25:46. Most versions of the Bible do read eternal punishment but when you crawl behind the english and see what the greek has to say, this is not nearly as black and white. The greek says "aionian kolasis" which directly translated means age-lasting correction. Just what would be the purpose of correction if there's no reprieve at some point? Does that mean that there is no hell? It doesn't appear that way, only that it's not endless. I know I open up a real pandora's box here and would immediately be branded a heretic by much of the evangelical community without even entering into a debate on this. But let's not forget that much of the tradition that a lot of the modern church holds to, almost as sacred, can't be meshed with scripture. Reading much of Wayne's material as well as other stuff that's out there has confirmed my restlessness on that point. I also struggle to find anything in scripture that says anything about the door of God's mercy closing after we breathe our last here. When the Psalmist declaes that God's mercy is as high as the heavens, and we know that's endless and when we boldly declare His infinite love, I find it hard to reconcile all this with eternal puishment. THere is much more that I've discovered in my research that room will not allow me to divulge here but I'm coming to the opinion that perhaps we need to look at this much more carefully than what has been the case. I hesitate to begin to fly any big flag on this because of the stereotyping it immediately creates but I wouldn't mind some feedback on what I've said. I’d like to wade into this whole universal salvation business just for a moment. I come from an eternal hell for all the lost background myself but have only recently begun to question this theology because I can’t reconcile who I’ve come to know God to be. When Jesus says in John 12:32,”And I , if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.” And what about 1 Cor.15:22 where Paul says,”As in Adam All died, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” How many is all? Do you really think that the God that’s depicted in the Bible and demonstrated 21st century style in “THe Shack” would do such a thing as predestine 99% of lost humanity to endless torment, especially when Jesus says in John 6:44 that NO ONE can even come to Him except the Father draw him? Since I began to question this theological construct, I’ve done a lot of research on the subject and I’ve found that the main verse that this whole thing seems to be based on is Matt.25:46. Most versions of the Bible do read eternal punishment but when you crawl behind the english and see what the greek has to say, this is not nearly as black and white. The greek says “aionian kolasis” which directly translated means age-lasting correction. Just what would be the purpose of correction if there’s no reprieve at some point? Does that mean that there is no hell? It doesn’t appear that way, only that it’s not endless. I know I open up a real pandora’s box here and would immediately be branded a heretic by much of the evangelical community without even entering into a debate on this. But let’s not forget that much of the tradition that a lot of the modern church holds to, almost as sacred, can’t be meshed with scripture. Reading much of Wayne’s material as well as other stuff that’s out there has confirmed my restlessness on that point. I also struggle to find anything in scripture that says anything about the door of God’s mercy closing after we breathe our last here. When the Psalmist declaes that God’s mercy is as high as the heavens, and we know that’s endless and when we boldly declare His infinite love, I find it hard to reconcile all this with eternal puishment. THere is much more that I’ve discovered in my research that room will not allow me to divulge here but I’m coming to the opinion that perhaps we need to look at this much more carefully than what has been the case. I hesitate to begin to fly any big flag on this because of the stereotyping it immediately creates but I wouldn’t mind some feedback on what I’ve said.

]]> By: Allen http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-28862 Allen Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:08:02 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-28862 Interesting site, I just finished reading "The Shack" and because of the epilogue I thought it was a true story. Silly me, I just don't read much. I must say I was a bit embarassed and dissappointed. And when I decided to take a look at all the blogs and you'd think the gates of Christianity is at risk. It just reaffirms my believe that christians as a whole suck. Not to say I haven't met some christians who impressed me. I've read the Bible or should I say the alexandrian Bible voted in during the 300s (Misquoting Jesus: Bart Ehrman). And I've been to church, many actually, beneath it all is power, control and money. Grace is secondary. As proof I offer all the old ladies who juudged me on my appearance when I walked in and the pastors asking for money. Being 51 I've observed all of us can be evaluated by the things we say, the things we do, and the effect we have on the people around us. The first two we can manipulate - the latter tells the truth of the type of people we are. The most amazing "christian" I know is a teacher who teaches austistic children with a love and tenderness I've never seen. When I asked her if she was a christian she replied she was brought up in a strict catholic home and will have nothing to do with God. I told her it was too late, while she denied the father and the son she lived the holy spirit. Thats what The Shack did for me - I see that some christians are not about theology or rules but about the way we live and the relationships we forge...that living the kingdom of heaven thing Jesus is big on. Interesting site, I just finished reading “The Shack” and because of the epilogue I thought it was a true story. Silly me, I just don’t read much. I must say I was a bit embarassed and dissappointed. And when I decided to take a look at all the blogs and you’d think the gates of Christianity is at risk. It just reaffirms my believe that christians as a whole suck. Not to say I haven’t met some christians who impressed me. I’ve read the Bible or should I say the alexandrian Bible voted in during the 300s (Misquoting Jesus: Bart Ehrman). And I’ve been to church, many actually, beneath it all is power, control and money. Grace is secondary. As proof I offer all the old ladies who juudged me on my appearance when I walked in and the pastors asking for money. Being 51 I’ve observed all of us can be evaluated by the things we say, the things we do, and the effect we have on the people around us. The first two we can manipulate – the latter tells the truth of the type of people we are. The most amazing “christian” I know is a teacher who teaches austistic children with a love and tenderness I’ve never seen. When I asked her if she was a christian she replied she was brought up in a strict catholic home and will have nothing to do with God. I told her it was too late, while she denied the father and the son she lived the holy spirit. Thats what The Shack did for me – I see that some christians are not about theology or rules but about the way we live and the relationships we forge…that living the kingdom of heaven thing Jesus is big on.

]]> By: Dan Ray http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-25879 Dan Ray Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:44:26 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-25879 Pastor Dan: I don't think C.S. Lewis works advocate anything like what appears in The Shack. Pastor Dan:
I don’t think C.S. Lewis works advocate anything like what appears in The Shack.

]]> By: Pastor dan http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-25816 Pastor dan Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:40:18 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-25816 Just wonderif C.S. Lewis went though any of this... when he wrote his books. Just wonderif C.S. Lewis went though any of this… when he wrote his books.

]]> By: Lisa Collins http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-25795 Lisa Collins Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:27:07 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-25795 I loved The Shack! We had a son that passed away when he was 15 and so the book brought a lot of insight to us. Thank you so much for your amazing book! It was very uplifting! Lisa I loved The Shack! We had a son that passed away when he was 15 and so the book brought a lot of insight to us. Thank you so much for your amazing book! It was very uplifting! Lisa

]]> By: Mike Nixon http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-25785 Mike Nixon Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:11:04 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-25785 Wayne, we met at retreat for tehachapi Grace Fellowship. I am overjoyed with what you are doing with the Shack. I have read of and watched your walk with the Lord for a number of years. This book continues your effort to get people to realy look at what God wants from us and what we need to have a relationship with Him. To those who are reading this, the books and writings should just be the opening of your minds to what God has for you. I could spend hours listing the damage of the past and using that to justify the resistance to what God has. However He keeps calling out to all of us through all the various ways we experience His existance and love. The response we have to the Shack is going to reflect our past experience. Now the issue is what are we going to do with it. Flee, fight or embrace it and let us get a tast of what God has for us and those around us. Our retreat was very much the same. Some fled, some fought and some embraced your message. However we all had seeds planted in us that are continueing to sprout. Discussions continue and our eyes are opened. We are slowly repenting in our thinking and our actions. Christians, like Rome arn't built in a day. Keep up the good work and take time to take care of you. Wayne,
we met at retreat for tehachapi Grace Fellowship. I am overjoyed with what you are doing with the Shack. I have read of and watched your walk with the Lord for a number of years. This book continues your effort to get people to realy look at what God wants from us and what we need to have a relationship with Him.

To those who are reading this, the books and writings should just be the opening of your minds to what God has for you. I could spend hours listing the damage of the past and using that to justify the resistance to what God has. However He keeps calling out to all of us through all the various ways we experience His existance and love. The response we have to the Shack is going to reflect our past experience. Now the issue is what are we going to do with it. Flee, fight or embrace it and let us get a tast of what God has for us and those around us.

Our retreat was very much the same. Some fled, some fought and some embraced your message. However we all had seeds planted in us that are continueing to sprout. Discussions continue and our eyes are opened. We are slowly repenting in our thinking and our actions.

Christians, like Rome arn’t built in a day. Keep up the good work and take time to take care of you.

]]> By: Danny http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-25784 Danny Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:09:25 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-25784 I wonder if God the Father desires a relationship with me like I desire a relationship with my son. Does he love me as much as I love my son? Does he feel that breathlessness that I feel when I am away from my son for an extended period of time? Is it righteous indignation that he feels when I sin or does his righteousness allow him feelings at all? Recently my young twelve year old son made some choices that were extremely damaging to himself and definitely far short of the standards of our home. I wasn’t angry. I wasn’t hurt. I wasn’t offended. I felt physically ill and my heart was broken for my son. My base instinctual reaction was to hold my son and let him know that my love for him had not changed one bit. I wanted him to know that having our sin exposed gives us the opportunity to run toward God, not away from him. It was an opportunity to teach him about the sin-shame-separation cycle that deeply affected my life into my 30’s. I wonder if God the Father loves me with the same unreasoned intensity that I love my son. I wonder if the Father actually wants to know me. I wonder if God the Father desires a relationship with me like I desire a relationship with my son. Does he love me as much as I love my son? Does he feel that breathlessness that I feel when I am away from my son for an extended period of time? Is it righteous indignation that he feels when I sin or does his righteousness allow him feelings at all?

Recently my young twelve year old son made some choices that were extremely damaging to himself and definitely far short of the standards of our home. I wasn’t angry. I wasn’t hurt. I wasn’t offended. I felt physically ill and my heart was broken for my son. My base instinctual reaction was to hold my son and let him know that my love for him had not changed one bit. I wanted him to know that having our sin exposed gives us the opportunity to run toward God, not away from him. It was an opportunity to teach him about the sin-shame-separation cycle that deeply affected my life into my 30’s.

I wonder if God the Father loves me with the same unreasoned intensity that I love my son.

I wonder if the Father actually wants to know me.

]]> By: GiGi http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-25755 GiGi Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:10:47 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-25755 I liked The Shack. I passed it onto friends. As an African-American woman I chaffed a little at the overweight, mammy-esq, sho' nuff, hand-on-hip, southern black woman version of God, but I overlooked that to see the heart of the book and as a result it touched me. (As a side note however: Please, Please be very sensitive about how you cast and portray that role in the movie version. Watch Gone with the Wind and other similar old movies then do it as different from those as possible. If not, you'll run the risk of alienating an entire group of viewers.) :) Anyhoo, my professor at Bible school always used to say that the key factor of any example, sample, model or analogy is its inevitable "break-down point". The example he used was of a model car... you could make an inch high perfectly working replica of say a '62 Caddy to show someone what the full size model looked like. Even if everything down to the paint color was accurate, the "breakdown point" would be the size which doesn't match the original. He used that to say that every model is in some way flawed or it would be... the real thing. I think the same is true of The Shack. Perhaps the scale or shade is off here or there (as every attempt to describe God will be), but the in the end it is still a good representation of the nature of God. I liked The Shack. I passed it onto friends. As an African-American woman I chaffed a little at the overweight, mammy-esq, sho’ nuff, hand-on-hip, southern black woman version of God, but I overlooked that to see the heart of the book and as a result it touched me.

(As a side note however: Please, Please be very sensitive about how you cast and portray that role in the movie version. Watch Gone with the Wind and other similar old movies then do it as different from those as possible. If not, you’ll run the risk of alienating an entire group of viewers.) :)

Anyhoo, my professor at Bible school always used to say that the key factor of any example, sample, model or analogy is its inevitable “break-down point”. The example he used was of a model car… you could make an inch high perfectly working replica of say a ’62 Caddy to show someone what the full size model looked like. Even if everything down to the paint color was accurate, the “breakdown point” would be the size which doesn’t match the original. He used that to say that every model is in some way flawed or it would be… the real thing.

I think the same is true of The Shack. Perhaps the scale or shade is off here or there (as every attempt to describe God will be), but the in the end it is still a good representation of the nature of God.

]]> By: Wayne http://lifestream.org/blog/2008/09/17/the-shack-controversy-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-25749 Wayne Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:09:12 +0000 http://lifestream.org/blog/?p=614#comment-25749 To Daniel Ray, I have nothing to do with the Shack Forum. Those things are designed to pretty much run on their own and we ask people to play nice. But I am truly sorry for how you were treated both by your ‘church’ and by folks at the forum. Your report is incredibly discouraging. People who act as you described don’t have a clue who Jesus is or how he lived. I pray they come to know him. Again, I’m sorry for what has happened to you. People become zealots and use things for purposes they were not intended. It grieves me to know that people have treated you thusly over a fictional book of all things! Wayne To Daniel Ray,

I have nothing to do with the Shack Forum. Those things are designed to pretty much run on their own and we ask people to play nice. But I am truly sorry for how you were treated both by your ‘church’ and by folks at the forum. Your report is incredibly discouraging. People who act as you described don’t have a clue who Jesus is or how he lived.

I pray they come to know him. Again, I’m sorry for what has happened to you. People become zealots and use things for purposes they were not intended. It grieves me to know that people have treated you thusly over a fictional book of all things!

Wayne

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